Dialogu 4




The aim of this Dialogue was to work towards the correction and the analysis of the main points that have been discussed during Dialogue 1,2,3 in order to write a letter regarding Law 65 on Social Enterprises to present to the Albanian Parliament, possibly through the National Council for Civil Society.


19 korrik 2017

 | The Art of the Process| # Dialogue 4 |


Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                            Min 4:00

-Welcome to dialogue 4. I will introduce you in English. What is particular today is that about 22 days ago, I received an email from association “Beyond Barriers” which invited social entrepreneurs to discuss Law 65. Since we started this process in March, and we have gone forward, I thought about calling immediately here to Ira  who is leading the project you see, to show her work, what is done so far and it was quite fast the decision to do the next dialogue in partnership. It was “together we could do it better than by ourselves”.

So if you have questions about why there is the law that you see, this is the reason. The aim now is to write the letter to 4 partners that we already discussed and I think we have enough to put elements to draft it. We don’t have to finish it today, but at least we need to add it, then I can send you everything and maybe we can finish  another time.

The parliament will be formed in Albania in the middle of September, so before that is no worth to present any letter, but we should do a ceremony of this project, what is done till now and everyone will be invited. The aim is to show the work process that is done but also the letter that we will write, so it will gain visibility not only the letter but also the way it is   written. So I prepared and I will show you.. I called it “Dear Deputy”. Another detail is that I spoke again with the council for civil society. He said that the letter will be presented either with the council or directed to the parliament, both ways can be done.. I think the best way is to do with the council.

Emanuela Zaimi                                                                                                            Min 8:21

-Yes but the council is again only representing civil society and what we are discussing is not only for social entreprises, is about social business.

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                            Min 9:24

-We need to use both ways, it is stronger.

Ariola Agalli                                                                                                                    Min 9:30

-Why was it decided to send the letter to the Parliament in dialogue 2?

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                          Min 9:52

-We decided to write a letter which has a specific process to show us as democratic as possible, as detailed as possible.

Ariola Agalli                                                                                                                Min 10:17

-And the letter will contain the main concerns for this law?

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                        Min 10:22

-The purpose of the letter is to say on the 31 articles you have on the law, the one that will be modified is this and this and how and why it should be modified.

Ariola Agalli                                                                                                                 Min 10:45

-Because we introduced at the first dialog that we already did the process with the parliament and facilitated by Partners Albania with the presentation of 13 NGO-s , SE and businesses. The letter that was to the parliament was  inside the framework before doing the law and was addressed all the concerns for all articles and for the law itself and it wouldn’t be at all proved. So the parliament allowed the commissions and it was a step by step process followed by the Ministry of Social Welfare to the Ministry of Finance and then to the Parliament. It didn’t change and they approved the law. So now this was my only question from dialogue 1. How it synergies combines this initiatives in order not to overleft with the other initiatives which already doing with Ministry, with Parliament, with social society forum in order this law not to be executed. Because this is very important, i mean if you send the letter to parliament is ok you can do it…

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                        Min 12:31

-The letter contains what is done so far. What I am showing  you is based in a new research, I put everything on the website, so there is a new research published from European Parliament which can also help for the SE.

Ariola Agolli                                                                                                       Min 13:25

-For the law this is new, it has not to do with the European research because we have enough proves, information and knowledge to share with the MP and also with the government that is not a reinforce  law. So this research, of course, is important but is not that was missing totally proves and researches and things like this to support the issues that civil society , SE and social businesses had.

Ira Topalli                                                                                                                     Min 14:12

-In that case lets speak it up there as well. Put in the letter also what has been done before and what is done now, the new points as well. At this moment the law is approved and we all agree that we need to change the law, so we reacted. When the law was not approved yet and we gave all recommendation possible as a professional and it wasn’t taken in consideration at all and the law is approved. So we are at the point that we have the law approved which is not right , which does have no impact, I would say “kills” the existing SE.

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                        Min 15:38

-But the law is not actualized yet. But if I can say the difference probably of what you did and what you are doning here is how it is been done. Of course that should be done again, it reinforces the argument, but the fact that it is done through a space that is opened to everyone to see, I mean people from Austria, France…who saw this process, who saw what people say about this.

 I am not a SE, I am not NGO, as I said I work in a different way. So the fact of showing publicly behind what is this process can also reinforce the argument nationally but also internationally.

Ariola Agalli                                                                                                                Min 16:37

-This is the first opinion but also in the other processes that are opened to all stakeholders are not foreign companies, but are SE, social businesses and civil society organizations in Albania, and when the process is done like we did it, an open process it is more public.

Emanuela Zaimi                                                                                                         Min 17:20

-We are sending a normal letter or… because we need exceptions I think. Literally I don’t  think the letter works. We need to do a hearing section??. Or session

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                        Min 17:58

-It will be a letter signed by a lot of people, it is not just a letter.

Emanuela Zaimi                                                                                                         Min 18:29

-The letter could have the history, the journey. The letter can only rise again the awareness among it but legally it won’t have any impact. There are other things that we need to do with the Parliament when it comes to requirements for changing the law, and I think is asking from Parliament Commitions is possible for such issues officially asking for a hearing section.- session

Ariola Agolli                                                                                                                Min 19:02

-But even with the letter you can ask for a hearing section- session. How it goes officially: you write the letter for the Parliament and then you ask for a hearing section-session. Through “ Dear Deputy” you don’t have a hearing section. If you say “ Directed to the commission …” and these are our issues that’s why we want the hearing section- sessionthen you can go where you are suggesting.

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                        Min 19:45

-Yes but we sent the issues for ex: Issues have being signed, also the Italian people have signed. Maybe is easier to have a hearing section-session with the parliament. The letter is also for the civil society. For ex: You present the meeting. Everyone in civil society approves ok, we try to present to the partners. Then you will bring to the parliament and the parliament will give you a meeting. I think is the same.

Ariola Agalli                                                                                                                Min 20:40

-The Parliament is the most opened institution in Albania and if you request  information, hearing section they will share with you hearing. So is not the matter about being together with Italian… but is an issue of what you want to address , is it right to address or not.

??? (Zonja me syze me bluzë blu)                                                                               Min 21:38

-As long as we are not satisfied with the law is worth to do something, to go on all levels that we can, that is why we take responsibility to civil society , this is an action I think which  is worth.

This action should be on all levels, it might not be successful and we have again to repeat it , but this is why we are in a country like that.

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                         Min 22:40

-I think the letter should also contain the “why” . For ex: In Italy I reflected a lot about what does it mean economy… It is impossible to compare such a different perception about what economy is. Also the property in Albanian history is different, even the foundation of the property is different. It is also a process that can help to autounderstand what is valid in the way of making money in a capital society.

Emanuela Zaimi                                                                                                         Min 23:46

-Do we have any opinion  from the Ministry of Economy?

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                        Min 23:57

-I haven’t contacted the Ministry because since we started this process in March, there was a protest , then was a change of the Ministers and then was the elections, so it was not the greatest time.

Emanuela Zaimi                                                                                                         Min 24:18

-Because I have voices that they don’t want this law…

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                        Min 24:28

– I don’t know about the voices, I only know we want for the Parliament to be formed in September and then we understand who will be the people we should talk to.

Ariola Agalli                                                                                                                  Min 24:45

The Ministry of Economy was part of working group. They work together and they came up with this law. There were some parts removed from the Ministry of Social Welfare that Ministry of Finance suggested. They said this is a law that comes from the joined groups of Ministry of Social Welfare and Ministry of Economy. The result is from  experts of Ministries working together.

Irene Margariti                                                                                                            Min 25:35

Ministry of Economy said that they will change the law for social entreprices but this was something that they didn’t want to do. TheMinistry told me personally that the law should be approved and then it will change, but I don’t understand why the law should be approved and then changed. Ministry of Economy has the fault. The law is still unrealizable because by-laws have not yet been emerged.

Emanuela Zaimi                                                                                                         Min 28:50

-You said that you invited the Ministry and depends on them if they come. You said that we don’t have the power (COD) to oblige them to come to this meeting. You said you are a government agency and this makes a lot of difference for this process.

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                        Min 29:13

-We are a government agency but it doesn’t mean that we can oblige a Ministry to come to dialogue.

Ariola Agalli                                                                                                                Min 29:50

-When I asked Valentina what represents she said this building here. So she represents the Prime Minister’s Building and the law has come here, is approved from Prime Minister and then they sent to the Parliament.

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                          Min 32:44

-In COD this is an artistic, creative process.

Ira Topalli                                                                                                                    Min 33:16

-I personally understand that COD doesn’t represent the Prime Minister’s building. For me is very democratic that this discussion is done here in this building which approved the law , I am totally for it in this case. We should use this on our advantage. I dont unvalue what you have done before , it reinforces the argument, this letter will be used to recommend , to push them for a hearing session and then follow the steps to address to Parliament. Till September that parliament will be formed we have enough time. Not only because we are organizations and we have responsabilites but also as citizens we should do something.

Ariola Agolli                                                                                                               Min 35:25

     – First it is not existent that we should move forward, if people are not here and not only because you want to do this in front of one person. Sorry for this. This is not what we are here to do.

Irene Margariti                                                                                                           Min 36:15

    – I think we have to decide and agree all. Personally I do not agree with the letter. Suggestions for  the letter came from Ergis Sefa, so by the National Council. We are in the fourth dialogue and we all have to find common points to move forward. Here we are all from civil society, although “NYTB” has a special business status, I like to always bring the voice of all those who in one way or another perform as entrepreneurial society. If we choose the paper model, there is nothing wrong with it. It is important to let down, to see who is better able to write letters, to draw up a few points for them as a base. Emanuela, who has been present in all the dialogues rightly says that last time we shared with the promise that this time we have to invite Franco Marzzochi, who is the initiator of this initiative in Albania since 2008, encouraging Albanians to raise because it thinks it increases the viability of all those initiatives that are in need of disadvantaged people. Certainly it was a little difficult June, where we tried to bring it but we could not. But we have one of his answers, which we have to see before we write this letter.

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                       Min 41:02

     – So basically, the feedback is based on legal point of view and it’s compared with the most recent research of the European social enterprises. I also published everything on the website so you can read it to understand better. So basically a point is the division of SE on type A and type B, which Albanian law does not reflect.


First Slide  + Second Slide                                                                              Min 41:22 – 50:30

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                        Min 51:38

     – I think it is a lot of content to write down, so what should be done today is to understand the order of the content in the letter.

Z…                                                                                                                               Min 52:16

     – I have something to say. Just to be effective, we have to think how is our aproach with the feedback and there are only two ways;

from government or from the parlament. Another instrument is to public this letter. The short way is that we are at the Prime Minister Institution, so if the Government or Prime Minister can tell us that the law can change, than it’s done.

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                       Min 53:12

      – My role is to protect us, so if something is presented as three people going as same well, this is a good thing, it’s one way.

Z…                                                                                                                               Min 53:37

     – Just to clarify, if we want to change the law, these are the ways: the letter in the Parlament and if we have the iniciative, we can support that.

Irene Margariti                                                                                                              Min 54:02  

     – I think parallel with the writing of the letter, we should also think about dialogue number 5, to make it clear for the next time. We need to reinforce not only ideas, but also participation. More signatures, the better it will be for us. What I would propose is to establish the dialogue, since the Prime Minister often makes dialogues with different characters, we can propose to him a dialogue with the Minister or Deputy Italian Minister. What is always annoying me, is the Albanian social enterprise model, which I need to understand how it works. We need to face the patterns of social entrepreneurship, because there are many in Albania. The purpose of social enterprises is to hire people who should not only be treated as employees but also as shareholders, even though the social enterprise does not have dividends. Decisions are taken together when we say we hire 30-40%, not always the employee is a man I’m getting off the road and I’m doing an honor but he gets into the administrative council and makes decisions. It is a form that Albanian law still does not allow. We can not say that there is no social enterprise in Albania. From 2001 until today, such are called those which rely on the basic definition of social initiatives. I insist on this, to continue with the form and the module we have initially set up. Socially owned enterprises have two obligations to the law: a fiscal obligation and a social obligation. Social obligation does not come out of this law, then what should we do to seek help from others? We and “Partners Albania” have done many national conferences on this fact and we have tried to say that in 2020 the fund opens to help social enterprises, but when this law does not support us then what should we do?

Emanuela Zaimi                                                                                                          Min 1:04:19

     – Are you for the idea of continuing the questionnaire? I completed that questionnaire and came to the conclusion that neither this questionnaire fails to collect all the information we need.

Irene Margariti                                                                                                            Min 1:04:15

    – I’m sorry, but this questionnaire has all the open sections, which means that you can add your own rubric. But if one of you can not find himself in the two definitions of social initiative in 2011, he may not be a social enterprise and is trying to get himself involved.

Emanuela Zaimi                                                                                                          Min 1:05:18

      – Not all of us started with one goal, but I’m talking about my case. I do not have all the knowledge and competencies to prove what am I, then with these dialogues can anyone prove to me whether or not I am a social venture.

Irene Margariti                                                                                                            Min 1:06:17

     – The next hour can be a lab to understand whether or not you are a social enterprise. To better understand, type A company: it produces and sells goods and services in a given field and has no profit distribution but produces and sells depending on where you are. Social services are subcontracted by the state. There are two basic principles that build social entrepreneurship: participation and democracy. For participation, you must have at least two people and have a minimum of two people to have a democracy. The difference between the social business and the social enterprise is that the social business says I’m too good alone and you manage to tax myself and not pick up the profits for you, but bring you somewhere else. This is not called social enterprise, but social responsibility.

Ariola Agolli                                                                                                                 Min 1:15:13

     – The principles are that there should be a social mission, certainly generate profit and have two basic principles of participation and modesty. Based on the research that we have done, it turns out that the principle of participation and democracy is not respected, as well as the principle of profit. In these conditions, all the war and dialogue with the Government is to let these social enterprises know where they are, to train and learn and then to set them by law.

Emanuela Zaimi                                                                                                          Min 1:18:53

     – We talked about business, the social and economic balance to have a decision-making from the one who created it, in terms of business issues, while participation and democracy are in the social investment area.

Emanuela Zaimi                                                                                                          Min 1:20:00

     – Meanwhile, tomorrow I may not be part of the foundation and there must be decision-making from the board of the flower shop foundation. Then where is the social entrepreneur’s role?

Ariola Agolli                                                                                                                 Min 1:21:11

    – Then record it on your own.

Emanuela Zaimi                                                                                                          Min 1:21:13

      – I’m looking for a model that keeps both social entrepreneurs and provides separate participation and democracy. As the social and economic balance is shared, I also manage to retain the talent of the entrepreneur.

Valentina Bonizzi                                                                                                         Min 1:22:31

     – I was thinking, maybe it is good to structure what you are speaking about in the letter, of course if you still want to writte the letter.



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